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September 20, 2024 • 3hr 37min
#444 – Vejas Liulevicius: Communism, Marxism, Nazism, Stalin, Mao, and Hitler
Lex Fridman Podcast
Vejas Liulevicius is a historian specializing in Germany and Eastern Europe who has lectured extensively on Marxism and the rise, reign, and fall of communism. In this wide-ranging conversation, Liulevicius discusses the key ideas of Marx, the implementation of communism in the Soviet Union and China, the similarities and differences between communist and fascist regimes, and the legacy and lessons of 20th century totalitarianism.
#444 – Vejas Liulevicius: Communism, Marxism, Nazism, Stalin, Mao, and Hitler
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Key Takeaways
- Marx's key ideas included viewing history as having a purpose and direction, with class struggle as the driving force of historical change
- Contradictions in Marxism included tension between determinism and individual action, nationalism vs globalism, and breaking with tradition while creating a new tradition
- The Communist Manifesto was a brief, influential pamphlet that gained prominence after the 1871 Paris Commune
- Lenin adapted Marxism to Russia's conditions, emphasizing the role of a vanguard party of professional revolutionaries
- Stalin consolidated power through control of personnel decisions and eliminating rivals, creating a brutal totalitarian regime
- Collectivization in the USSR led to famine and millions of deaths due to unrealistic quotas and punishment of successful farmers
- Mao adapted communism to China, emphasizing the role of peasants rather than industrial workers
- The Great Leap Forward in China led to approximately 40 million deaths from famine and failed industrialization policies
- Totalitarian regimes like Nazi Germany and the USSR had some similarities in methods of control despite ideological differences
- Reading books is crucial for developing empathy, critical thinking, and resisting manipulation
Introduction
Vejas Liulevicius is a historian specializing in Germany and Eastern Europe who has lectured extensively on Marxism and the rise, reign, and fall of communism. In this wide-ranging conversation, Liulevicius discusses the key ideas of Marx, the implementation of communism in the Soviet Union and China, the similarities and differences between communist and fascist regimes, and the legacy and lessons of 20th century totalitarianism.
Topics Discussed
Marx's Key Ideas (8:55)
Liulevicius outlines several of Marx's central ideas that laid the foundation for communism:
- History has a purpose and direction, not just random events
- There is a "science of revolution" that can move society towards liberation
- Special individuals can play a heroic role in pushing history forward
- Class struggle is the driving force of historical change
He notes there were contradictions in Marx's thinking, such as determinism vs individual action. Marx saw revolution as necessary for the working class to gain class consciousness.
The Communist Manifesto (51:30)
Liulevicius discusses the Communist Manifesto, noting:
- It was a brief pamphlet, in contrast to Marx's massive work Das Kapital
- It gained prominence after the 1871 Paris Commune, not during the 1848 revolutions
- It was meant as a practical call to action, not just theory
- It confidently laid out the supposed inevitable course of history
"The communist manifesto is a call to arms. It announces with great confidence what the scheme of history will be."
Communism in the Soviet Union (1:00:29)
The discussion turns to how communism came to power in Russia:
- Lenin adapted Marxism to Russia's conditions, which were less industrialized than Marx expected
- The Bolsheviks seized power in the chaos following World War I
- Lenin emphasized the role of a vanguard party of professional revolutionaries
- Violence and terror were seen as necessary by the Bolsheviks
Liulevicius notes Lenin was influenced by both Marxism and the Russian revolutionary tradition of nihilism.
Stalin's Rise to Power (1:20:23)
Stalin consolidated power through:
- Control of personnel decisions in the Bolshevik party
- Presenting himself as a moderate conciliator initially
- Eliminating rivals like Trotsky
- Using propaganda to build a cult of personality
Liulevicius notes Stalin was able to create an image of himself as a great leader despite lacking charisma.
Collectivization and the Holodomor (1:37:26)
The collectivization of agriculture under Stalin led to catastrophic famine:
- Successful farmers ("kulaks") were punished, removing incentives
- Unrealistic quotas were imposed
- Food was forcibly taken from starving regions
- An estimated 3-5 million died in Ukraine alone (the Holodomor)
Liulevicius explains this was partly due to communist ideology's conflicted view of agriculture and peasants.
The Great Terror (1:51:16)
Stalin's Great Purge in 1936-38 targeted:
- Communist Party officials
- Military officers
- Intellectuals
- Ordinary citizens (often to fill quotas)
An estimated 600,000-1.2 million were executed. Liulevicius notes this created a climate of fear and paralyzed resistance.
Totalitarianism (2:04:17)
Liulevicius discusses similarities between Nazi Germany and Stalin's USSR:
- Rejection of democracy and liberal values
- Demand for fanatical loyalty, not just obedience
- Use of terror and propaganda
- Ambition for total control of society
He notes Hannah Arendt's concept of totalitarianism as a new form of dictatorship in the 20th century.
Mao and Communism in China (2:36:50)
Mao adapted Marxism to China's conditions:
- Emphasized the revolutionary role of peasants rather than industrial workers
- Sought to outdo Stalin and prove China's superiority
- Launched the Great Leap Forward to rapidly industrialize
The Great Leap Forward led to an estimated 40 million deaths from famine and failed policies.
Communism in the US (2:58:34)
The American Communist Party faced challenges:
- Initially associated with immigrant communities
- Struggled to appeal to American workers
- Damaged by association with Soviet espionage
- Hurt by having to suddenly change positions after the Nazi-Soviet Pact
Liulevicius notes the Cold War solidified communism as the enemy of American ideals.
Russia after the Soviet Union (3:06:04)
Liulevicius argues Russia has not fully reckoned with its Soviet past:
- No "Nuremberg trials" to establish responsibility
- Putin has promoted an eclectic mix of historical narratives
- Nostalgia for past greatness fuels current aggression
He notes Ukraine's resistance has surprised Putin, who expected more pro-Russian sentiment.
Advice for Young People (3:28:16)
Liulevicius emphasizes the importance of reading:
- Sitting with a book allows deep engagement with ideas
- Reading develops empathy and broadens perspectives
- It's crucial for resisting manipulation and AI-generated false realities
"The task of sitting down with a book and absorbing its message, not agreeing with it necessarily, but taking in the implication, learning how to think within the categories and the values of the author, is going to be irreplaceable."
Conclusion
This wide-ranging conversation covers the key ideas of Marxism, the implementation of communism in the Soviet Union and China, and the legacy of 20th century totalitarianism. Liulevicius provides nuanced historical context while highlighting the human costs of these ideologies put into practice. He emphasizes the importance of reading and critical thinking to understand history and resist manipulation. Despite the dark subject matter, Liulevicius expresses hope in human resilience and the ability to rebuild after tragedy.