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October 11, 2024 • 2hr 30min
#448 – Jordan Peterson: Nietzsche, Hitler, God, Psychopathy, Suffering & Meaning
Lex Fridman Podcast
Jordan Peterson returns for his second appearance on the Lex Fridman Podcast. Peterson is a clinical psychologist, cultural critic, and professor of psychology known for his self-help advice and controversial political views. In this wide-ranging 3+ hour conversation, Peterson and Fridman discuss topics including Nietzsche's philosophy, the nature of good and evil, religious thought, confronting hardship, and the pursuit of truth.
#448 – Jordan Peterson: Nietzsche, Hitler, God, Psychopathy, Suffering & Meaning
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Key Takeaways
- On Nietzsche: Jordan Peterson discusses Nietzsche's profound influence on his writing style and thinking. He describes Nietzsche's writing as intellectually dense, succinct, and emotionally dynamic.
- On power and propaganda: Peterson warns against unifying ideologies that simplify complex realities, like Marxism or fascism. He argues these can be dangerous when used to justify the use of power and compulsion.
- On religion: Peterson sees religious thought as ideas that have successfully scaled and iterated over time. He views God as a "call to adventure" that pushes people beyond their comfort zones.
- On hardship: Peterson discusses how voluntarily confronting hardship and challenges can lead to personal growth and meaning. He shares his own experience with severe chronic pain and how it gave him greater appreciation for ordinary moments.
- On truth: Peterson emphasizes the importance of orienting one's life towards truth and maintaining a positive orientation, even when exploring difficult ideas. He sees this as a moral obligation.
Introduction
Jordan Peterson returns for his second appearance on the Lex Fridman Podcast. Peterson is a clinical psychologist, cultural critic, and professor of psychology known for his self-help advice and controversial political views. In this wide-ranging 3+ hour conversation, Peterson and Fridman discuss topics including Nietzsche's philosophy, the nature of good and evil, religious thought, confronting hardship, and the pursuit of truth.
Topics Discussed
Nietzsche's Influence (7:07)
Peterson begins by discussing Friedrich Nietzsche's profound influence on his writing style and thinking:
- Describes Nietzsche's writing as extremely intellectually dense and succinct
- Praises Nietzsche's emotionally dynamic and romantic writing style
- Says Nietzsche condenses complex ideas into short aphorisms
- Notes that nearly every sentence of Nietzsche's work is worth analyzing deeply
Peterson states: "I was blown away when I first came across his writings. They're so, they're so intellectually dense that I don't know if there's anything that approximates that."
Power and Propaganda (14:48)
The conversation turns to how powerful ideologies and propaganda can shape people's perceptions and actions:
- Peterson warns against unifying ideologies that oversimplify complex realities, like Marxism or fascism
- Argues these can be dangerous when used to justify the use of power and compulsion
- Discusses how propagandistic thinkers attempt to unify all goals into a coherent singularity
- Notes the appeal of simple unifying ideas but cautions against invalid ones
Peterson states: "If you provide people with a simple manner of integrating all their actions, you decrease their anxiety and you increase their motivation. That can be a good thing. If the unifying idea that you put forward is very valid, but it's the worst of all possible ideas. If you put forward an invalid, unifying idea."
Religion and God (24:54)
Peterson shares his views on religious thought and the concept of God:
- Sees religious thought as ideas that have successfully scaled and iterated over time
- Views God as a "call to adventure" that pushes people beyond their comfort zones
- Describes the biblical story of Abraham as an archetypal hero's journey
- Argues that following the "call to adventure" leads to personal growth and meaning
Peterson states: "God is making a claim. He says, first of all, there's a drive that you should attend to. So the spirit of adventure that calls you out of your zone of comfort. Now, if you attend to that and you make the sacrifices necessary to follow that path, then the following benefits will accrue to you."
Advice for Young People (59:24)
Peterson offers advice for young people struggling with feelings of inadequacy:
- Encourages focusing on incremental self-improvement rather than comparing oneself to others
- Emphasizes the importance of "getting yourself together" to become more attractive and successful
- Argues that taking on challenges and responsibilities leads to personal growth
- Suggests maintaining faith in one's potential despite current limitations
Peterson states: "Get yourself together. You know, stand up straight with your shoulders back. Take on some adventure. Find your calling abide by your conscience. Put yourself together and you'll become attractive."
Good and Evil (1:32:00)
The conversation explores the nature of good and evil, particularly in the context of World War II:
- Discusses the moral complexities of allying with Stalin to defeat Hitler
- Argues the West failed to fully reckon with the atrocities of communism after WWII
- Cautions against using extreme language like "communist" or "fascist" too loosely in modern politics
- Suggests many online political extremists may be young people experimenting with cynicism
Peterson states: "I think the West's failure wasn't so much allying with Stalin. I mean, it was Douglas MacArthur who wanted to continue. He thought we should just take the Soviets out after the second world war, and they removed them from any position of authority where such a thing might be made possible. And people were tired and. But was MacArthur wrong? Well, he certainly wasn't wrong in his insistence that Stalin was as big a monster as Hitler or bigger."
Hardship and Personal Growth (1:58:15)
Peterson shares his experience with severe chronic pain and how it affected his outlook:
- Describes 3 years of constant, debilitating pain that reset each morning
- Credits his family relationships for helping him endure the suffering
- Gained greater appreciation for ordinary, pain-free moments
- Argues that voluntarily confronting hardship can lead to personal growth
Peterson states: "I'm a lot more grateful for just ordinary ordinariness than I was, because when I first recovered, I remember I was standing, first started to recover. I was standing in this pharmacy waiting for a prescription in little town, and they weren't being particularly efficient about it. So I was in that standing in the aisle for, like, 20 minutes, and I thought, I'm not on fire. I could just stand here for, like, the rest of my life, just not being in pain and enjoying that."
Truth and Free Speech (2:21:32)
The conversation concludes with a discussion on pursuing truth and the importance of free speech:
- Peterson emphasizes orienting one's life towards truth as a moral obligation
- Argues that maintaining a positive orientation is crucial for shaping a better future
- Stresses the need to protect people's right to be wrong in pursuit of truth
- Cautions against reducing people to their worst statements or ideas
Peterson states: "You have a moral obligation too, to maintain a positive orientation. It's a moral obligation. The future is, of course, rife with contradictory possibilities. And I suppose in some ways, the more rapid the rate of transformation, the more possibility for good and for evil is making itself manifest at any moment. But it looks like the best way to ensure that the future is everything we wish it would be, is to maintain faith that that is the direction that will prevail."
Conclusion
This wide-ranging conversation between Jordan Peterson and Lex Fridman touches on profound philosophical and psychological topics. Peterson's insights on confronting hardship, pursuing truth, and maintaining a positive orientation offer thought-provoking perspectives on how to navigate life's challenges. While some of his views remain controversial, Peterson's emphasis on personal responsibility and voluntary confrontation with difficulty presents a compelling framework for personal growth and meaning-making. The discussion highlights the complexities of good and evil, the power of ideas, and the importance of free speech in exploring difficult topics.