February 12, 2025 • 3hr 30min

#2272 - Mike Benz

The Joe Rogan Experience

Mike Benz, former State Department official and current Executive Director of the Foundation For Freedom Online, returns to discuss the recent revelations about USAID operations following the DOGE investigation. He provides detailed analysis of how USAID functions as a key mechanism for US foreign influence operations with less oversight than traditional intelligence agencies.

#2272 - Mike Benz

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Key Takeaways

USAID (US Agency for International Development) has been used as a key mechanism for US foreign influence operations and regime change efforts worldwide, with less oversight than CIA operations
The agency operates through a vast network of NGOs, media organizations, and civil society groups to shape narratives and influence political outcomes in foreign countries
Recent documents exposed by DOGE investigation revealed extensive USAID funding of domestic partisan activities and propaganda operations
The agency has been involved in judicial reform efforts globally to influence legal systems and prosecute political opponents
USAID operations often involve coordination with intelligence agencies, military, and State Department but with less oversight and transparency
The organization has been implicated in supporting drug trafficking networks and using cultural initiatives like music programs for political influence

Introduction

Mike Benz, former State Department official and current Executive Director of the Foundation For Freedom Online, returns to discuss the recent revelations about USAID operations following the DOGE investigation. He provides detailed analysis of how USAID functions as a key mechanism for US foreign influence operations with less oversight than traditional intelligence agencies.

Topics Discussed

USAID's Role in US Foreign Policy (0:00)

Benz explains how USAID operates as a crucial but less scrutinized arm of US foreign policy:

Less Oversight: Unlike CIA operations which require presidential approval, USAID can conduct similar influence operations with minimal oversight
Vast Network: The agency works through thousands of NGOs and civil society organizations globally
Plausible Deniability: USAID provides cover for operations too sensitive for direct CIA involvement
Operations are often coordinated with intelligence agencies but without the same level of transparency

Recent DOGE Investigation Revelations (15:30)

Discussion of the recent exposure of USAID operations through the DOGE investigation:

Massive Staff Reduction: USAID workforce reduced from 14,000 to 290 employees
Domestic Operations: Evidence revealed of extensive domestic partisan funding and propaganda
NGO Network: Exposed complex web of organizations receiving USAID funding
Documents showed coordination between USAID and Democratic Party operations

Media Control and Influence Operations (30:45)

Benz details USAID's extensive media influence operations:

Intern News Network: Receives $500 million annually to operate global media network
Media Training: Programs to train journalists in target countries
Narrative Control: Coordination with fact-checkers and censorship operations
Use of "independent media" designation to mask government control

Judicial Reform and Legal System Influence (45:20)

Discussion of USAID's role in influencing legal systems globally:

Global Program: Judicial reform initiatives in dozens of countries
Political Targeting: Use of legal systems to prosecute political opponents
Prosecutor Networks: Building networks of aligned prosecutors and judges
Coordination with local NGOs and civil society groups

Cultural Influence Operations (1:05:30)

Examination of USAID's use of cultural programs for influence:

Music Programs: Support for musicians and artists aligned with US interests
Youth Engagement: Focus on influencing younger demographics
Historical Pattern: Similar to Cold War era cultural diplomacy efforts
Coordination with entertainment industry and cultural institutions

Drug Networks and Covert Operations (1:25:45)

Discussion of USAID's historical involvement with drug trafficking networks:

Historical Pattern: Support for drug networks tied to US-aligned groups
Financial Networks: Use of banking systems to manage illegal proceeds
Current Operations: Ongoing involvement in regions with significant drug trade
Coordination with military and intelligence operations

Brazil Case Study (1:45:15)

Detailed examination of USAID operations in Brazil:

Judicial Influence: Training and support for Brazilian judges
Political Targeting: Operations against Bolsonaro administration
Media Control: Coordination with Brazilian media organizations
Integration with broader US policy objectives in South America

Reform Challenges and Future Outlook (2:05:30)

Discussion of challenges in reforming USAID:

Long-Term Project: Reform estimated to take 50 years
Institutional Resistance: Expected pushback from established interests
International Implications: Impact on US foreign relations
Need for new oversight mechanisms and transparency

Conclusion

The conversation reveals the extensive scope and impact of USAID operations globally, highlighting the agency's role in US foreign policy beyond its stated humanitarian mission. The recent DOGE investigation has exposed previously hidden aspects of these operations, creating an opportunity for reform while also highlighting the significant challenges involved in changing such an entrenched system.