December 3, 2024 • 2hr 51min

#2237 - Mike Benz

The Joe Rogan Experience

Mike Benz is the Executive Director of the Foundation for Freedom Online and former State Department official. In this wide-ranging conversation with Joe Rogan, he details the extensive censorship apparatus that has been built across government agencies, NGOs, academic institutions and tech companies. He explains how this system evolved, who funds it, how it operates, and its broader geopolitical implications.

#2237 - Mike Benz

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Key Takeaways

The censorship apparatus began in 2014 after events in Ukraine, expanded significantly after Trump's 2016 election, and became deeply entrenched across government, academia, media and tech companies
Government agencies including the Pentagon, State Department, USAID, and CIA fund an extensive network of "civil society" organizations and academic institutions to implement censorship while maintaining plausible deniability
The National Endowment for Democracy (NED) operates as a self-admitted CIA cutout organization, working to implement censorship programs in 140+ countries while maintaining the appearance of being an NGO
Major tech companies face pressure to implement censorship through threats of regulation and investigations, while also depending on government support for international market access
The censorship infrastructure serves broader geopolitical aims around controlling energy markets, particularly regarding Russia and Ukraine

Introduction

Mike Benz is the Executive Director of the Foundation for Freedom Online and former State Department official. In this wide-ranging conversation with Joe Rogan, he details the extensive censorship apparatus that has been built across government agencies, NGOs, academic institutions and tech companies. He explains how this system evolved, who funds it, how it operates, and its broader geopolitical implications.

Topics Discussed

Origins of Modern Censorship Infrastructure (2:08)

The modern censorship apparatus began taking shape in 2014 following events in Ukraine. The US government realized it needed more control over online narratives after seeing how social media could impact geopolitical events.

Initial focus was on countering Russian influence but later expanded to domestic "disinformation"
Key turning point was Trump's 2016 election victory, which demonstrated the power of social media to impact electoral outcomes
Infrastructure expanded dramatically between 2016-2020 through government funding of academic centers, NGOs and private companies
By 2022, the system had become "too big to fail" according to internal documents

The National Endowment for Democracy's Role (36:23)

The National Endowment for Democracy (NED) plays a central role in implementing censorship programs globally while maintaining the appearance of being an independent NGO.

Created in 1983 at the request of CIA Director William Casey
Fully funded by US government but operates as a supposed NGO
Operates censorship programs in over 140 countries
Works through four core organizations representing different power centers:
- International Republican Institute (GOP wing)
- National Democratic Institute (Democrat wing)
- Center for International Private Enterprise (Chamber of Commerce)
- Solidarity Center (Labor unions)

The "Whole of Society" Approach (58:41)

Government agencies use a "whole of society" framework to implement censorship while maintaining plausible deniability about direct government control.

Four key pillars:
- Government agencies (DHS, State Dept, Pentagon, etc)
- Private sector (tech platforms)
- Civil society (universities, NGOs)
- Media organizations
Government provides funding and coordination but pressure on tech platforms comes primarily from NGOs and media
Universities have established over 100 "disinformation research centers" funded by government grants
Creates appearance of organic democratic consensus rather than top-down control

Tech Company Pressure Points (1:54:46)

Major tech companies face various forms of pressure to implement censorship policies.

Regulatory threats from Congress and agencies
Dependence on State Department for international market access
Media pressure campaigns coordinated with government agencies
Financial incentives to maintain good government relations

The Geopolitical Energy Angle (2:18:51)

The censorship infrastructure serves broader geopolitical aims, particularly around controlling energy markets and limiting Russian influence.

Russia has world's largest exploitable natural resources
US strategy aims to limit Russian energy leverage over Europe
Ukraine conflict tied to control of energy resources
Censorship helps control narratives around energy politics

The Burisma Connection (2:28:22)

The case of Burisma illustrates how private companies can serve as instruments of state power while generating private profits.

Burisma positioned to help reduce European dependence on Russian gas
Hunter Biden and CIA veteran Cofer Black on board of directors
Company received support from various US government entities
Illustrates "foreign policy for personal profit" model

Conclusion

Mike Benz presents a comprehensive look at how government agencies have built an extensive censorship apparatus operating through seemingly independent organizations. This system serves both domestic political aims and broader geopolitical strategies, particularly around controlling energy markets and limiting Russian influence. The infrastructure has become deeply embedded across institutions but faces new scrutiny and resistance following Elon Musk's acquisition of Twitter and increased public awareness.

The conversation reveals how censorship programs that began as foreign-focused operations expanded dramatically into domestic affairs, particularly after Trump's 2016 election victory demonstrated the power of social media to impact political outcomes. The system operates through complex networks of government-funded but nominally independent organizations, allowing for plausible deniability about direct government control while achieving censorship aims.